Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

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Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby iced98lx » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:50 pm

Ooh, look what arrived today!

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Let the fun begin.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby Bosch » Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:25 pm

Looks like fun! What size bulkheads and what do you have planned for them?
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby iced98lx » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:09 am

Bosch wrote:Looks like fun! What size bulkheads and what do you have planned for them?


all 1 inch. Two for the current overflows that are in the bottom, which will be changed to returns, and three for the new side mounted overflow.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby iced98lx » Tue May 14, 2013 9:29 am

My DIY lighting and controller build (viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1799) will power this tank. I picked up a bunch of rock and it's currently soaking in some bleach water, getting ready for a few rounds of acid.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby cdness » Tue May 14, 2013 10:23 am

WooHoo! Gotta get that 180 wet soon!
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby iced98lx » Tue May 14, 2013 10:24 am

Image

Image

Image

Image

The garage is playing host to a few buckets of rock that is getting the bleach / acid / LC treatment.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby cdness » Tue May 14, 2013 11:29 am

You don't tend to hear this much other than in the Reefing scene, but that's some nice rock!

Remember to NOT stand downwind when you add the acid to the tubs. Also do it outside as it will bubble over those tubs. It's like an instant skimmer when you add the acid. Kinda cool, but it can knock you on your rear if you are downwind.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby Railcar79 » Tue May 14, 2013 11:35 am

now this question might seem daft, but why in the world would you dump acid onto calcium bicarbonate? all you do is dissolve the rock. I am not even cooking mine. get it set in the tank, fill it up and let her buck
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby iced98lx » Tue May 14, 2013 12:42 pm

cdness wrote:You don't tend to hear this much other than in the Reefing scene, but that's some nice rock!

Remember to NOT stand downwind when you add the acid to the tubs. Also do it outside as it will bubble over those tubs. It's like an instant skimmer when you add the acid. Kinda cool, but it can knock you on your rear if you are downwind.


Luckily the wife's a chemist so we'll be taking all proper precautions ;)

Nice rock indeed. Right now the bleach is taking care of quite a bit, I've been surprised.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby black hills tj » Tue May 14, 2013 12:42 pm

Railcar79 wrote:now this question might seem daft, but why in the world would you dump acid onto calcium bicarbonate? all you do is dissolve the rock. I am not even cooking mine. get it set in the tank, fill it up and let her buck


Acid bath the pukani to remove phosphates
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby iced98lx » Tue May 14, 2013 12:49 pm

Railcar79 wrote:now this question might seem daft, but why in the world would you dump acid onto calcium bicarbonate? all you do is dissolve the rock. I am not even cooking mine. get it set in the tank, fill it up and let her buck


You do indeed dissolve rock, 100% and that is the goal. Take the outermost, phosphate soaked layer off. I'll then treat with copious amounts of lanthanum chloride over a series of time to let the phosphates that are going to leach out do it before I get it in a tank. This is older, used rock that needs a new lease on life to be as good as it can be. Letting it leach phosphates in a tank could mean algae growth for months, or even years depending and hundreds in phosban or other similar media. LC treatment after an acid bath can get things cleaned out much quicker.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby cdness » Tue May 14, 2013 1:25 pm

iced98lx wrote:You do indeed dissolve rock, 100% and that is the goal. Take the outermost, phosphate soaked layer off. I'll then treat with copious amounts of lanthanum chloride over a series of time to let the phosphates that are going to leach out do it before I get it in a tank. This is older, used rock that needs a new lease on life to be as good as it can be. Letting it leach phosphates in a tank could mean algae growth for months, or even years depending and hundreds in phosban or other similar media. LC treatment after an acid bath can get things cleaned out much quicker.


Yes, phosphate soaked rock is a PITA. Trust me a friend dealt with the algae from that for almost 2 years before getting it under control. A small fortune in GFO and RODI wasted when all he needed was acid and bleach ;)
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby iced98lx » Tue May 14, 2013 1:28 pm

cdness wrote:
iced98lx wrote:You do indeed dissolve rock, 100% and that is the goal. Take the outermost, phosphate soaked layer off. I'll then treat with copious amounts of lanthanum chloride over a series of time to let the phosphates that are going to leach out do it before I get it in a tank. This is older, used rock that needs a new lease on life to be as good as it can be. Letting it leach phosphates in a tank could mean algae growth for months, or even years depending and hundreds in phosban or other similar media. LC treatment after an acid bath can get things cleaned out much quicker.


Yes, phosphate soaked rock is a PITA. Trust me a friend dealt with the algae from that for almost 2 years before getting it under control. A small fortune in GFO and RODI wasted when all he needed was acid and bleach ;)


Acid, bleach and LC, IMHO. I think a long term plan of letting the LC leach it out of the rock is key.

of course, I just may have no idea and will end up with a bunch of very good looking unusable rock that is chuck full of phosphates still, though I doubt it.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby Railcar79 » Tue May 14, 2013 2:33 pm

I am just going to have to let it buck, if I tried soaking in acid on my schedule, I would have tubs of neutralized acid, and no rocks left. I guess my CUC will be well fed if I get the algea issues.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby iced98lx » Wed May 15, 2013 1:07 pm

Image

Hole in far right rock is popcan sized, for reference.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby iced98lx » Wed May 15, 2013 2:51 pm

Can already tell I'm going to have too much fun with aquascaping.

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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby Railcar79 » Wed May 15, 2013 6:55 pm

how long are you soaking the rocks?
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby iced98lx » Wed May 15, 2013 9:05 pm

Railcar79 wrote:how long are you soaking the rocks?


The bleach cycle is just ~30->36 hours. Then it's about a 30 min dip in the acid, then they go in a big barrel with LC until they don't leach any more phosphates.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby Railcar79 » Wed May 15, 2013 10:29 pm

I did a ton of research about acid dipping, and I might give it a go. What acid do you use, and where did you source it?
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby iced98lx » Fri May 17, 2013 10:00 am

Acid: just need a HCI based product at 10% concentration, so anything that is less than that, you're in good shape. I believe Misty makes a product Bolex which is 23% HCI, or you can get 30% HCI at most paint supply shops.

Need to get a baseline reading on what's going on with Phosphates, so into a tub a couple pieces go:

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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby isu712 » Fri May 17, 2013 2:31 pm

You wrote HCI, but I assume you mean HCl. The first would be a molecule of hydrogen, carbon, and iodine and the second is hydrochloric acid. Not to nitpick, but just in case someone else reads this I think it would be best to avoid the confusion.

P.S. I won't tell your wife that you messed up the chemistry ;)
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby iced98lx » Fri May 17, 2013 2:57 pm

isu712 wrote:You wrote HCI, but I assume you mean HCl. The first would be a molecule of hydrogen, carbon, and iodine and the second is hydrochloric acid. Not to nitpick, but just in case someone else reads this I think it would be best to avoid the confusion.

P.S. I won't tell your wife that you messed up the chemistry ;)


CRAP!

She'll roast me!

Good catch, I did indeed mean hydrochloric acid. Most people talk about Muriatic acid which is just HCl at 30% concentration and dilluting it to 10% so could be Muriatic acid from a hardware store like ACE or Bolex toilet cleaner (23% HCl) from walmart as I understand it.

Matt, I didn't run this post past the wife, is that accurate?
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby isu712 » Sun May 19, 2013 10:41 pm

I'm not sure I understand the question, run it past me one more time.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby Railcar79 » Sun May 19, 2013 11:41 pm

so for the acid bath dilute to 10% or should I go for less, say 2.8% (1 gal 28% and 9 gallons water)
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby Bosch » Mon May 20, 2013 8:42 pm

Railcar79 wrote:so for the acid bath dilute to 10% or should I go for less, say 2.8% (1 gal 28% and 9 gallons water)
Try the latter first. 1 part muriatic acid to 9 parts water. Always add acid to water and never add water to acid. Make sure to mix on this order. Best to do outside to avoid noxious fumes.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby Railcar79 » Mon May 20, 2013 8:55 pm

I fully well do plan on doing this outside, wearing a chemical protective suit and a gas mask, and you can bet I will be standing upwind of it when I put the rock in. If my fume hood was bigger I would do it under the fume hood.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby black hills tj » Mon May 20, 2013 9:12 pm

HCl isn't that bad. Haha. Think Gas Mask and suit might be a bit much. Just have steady hands ;)
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby Railcar79 » Mon May 20, 2013 9:56 pm

I have several gas masks and chemical suits left over, this seems as good of reason as any to finally use them.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby iced98lx » Sun May 26, 2013 12:44 pm

Second pump (another T4) on its way.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby iced98lx » Sun May 26, 2013 4:31 pm

Tank out in garage. Much heavier on way out vs in.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby iced98lx » Mon May 27, 2013 12:10 pm

well, tested the rock I bought today for phosphates after soaking in RO for a week or two: .02 ppm.

Much lower than I anticipated.

Will be purchasing and putting to use some phosphate remover, but surprised how low it is.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby shifty51008 » Mon May 27, 2013 1:00 pm

that will be plenty low enough, if this is with the hanna checker it could actually be 0, but then again it could be .05 lol. running a little GFO never hurts though.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby iced98lx » Mon May 27, 2013 1:34 pm

shifty51008 wrote:that will be plenty low enough, if this is with the hanna checker it could actually be 0, but then again it could be .05 lol. running a little GFO never hurts though.


That's my thoughts but I've seen this rock grow GHA, it's got bound phosphate in there somewhere, perhaps the heavy bleaching + acid bath took care of some, but I doubt all. I don't really want to get it all in there and watch it grow hair for months so I'll pre-treat before it goes in and hope it helps.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby iced98lx » Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:32 am

Well, the little tank has had some serious issue lately, with temp swings, ATO problems etc. Glad I'm working them out on it, vs the big tank ;) one thing I noticed was that my RO/DI unit was putting out 1-3 tds for the for 30 seconds after turning on, at least that i could see. I take my topoff water out of there, and it runs for a few moments every time I fill the ATO tank, so I think I've created myself an issue with the water.


Anyway, the RO/DI had these wimpy little DI canisters on top of it, which you couldn't see into. I needed new prefilters anyway so I picked this up while I was ordering:

Image

Going to emtpy my change tank, RO/DI tank, and start from scratch after I change everything out.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby cdness » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:24 pm

You are a techie right? just kidding I know you are. What you are experiencing is the standard TDS creep like people get when they run their ATO directly off the RODI (bad idea). There are ways to prevent this...

Simple (no programming): Use two float switches and a latching relay to control an RODI supply solenoid. When the water hits the lower switch in the reservoir, the relay is triggered on. The water rises up to the highest float switch and will turn off when it reaches the designated height. I would put in a float switch as well just as a backup in case your high level switch fails...

Advanced (Requires super-geek powers): Use the same two floats or a single pressure switch hooked to an arduino or similar system. Program your high and low pressure points and control the solenoid from the programming. This way you don't have to drain it all the way if you don't want to. Put modes into the device so it knows what day of the week you do water changes so no matter what the level of the reservoir, it will make sure it is full for you when you are ready to mix your salt. I know it's a little overboard, but the geek inside me wants to build something ;) however when it comes to programming it is better at pseudo-code than actual coding...

Nice dual DI system you have there. You should modify it to have an in-line TDS meter after each stage of the DI. That way you can tell when canister 1 is shot and can maintain it easier. The color changing resin never is a good indicator as even after the color changes, it may still have some good life left that you are unable to see with your eyes.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby iced98lx » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:05 pm

cdness wrote:You are a techie right? just kidding I know you are. What you are experiencing is the standard TDS creep like people get when they run their ATO directly off the RODI (bad idea). There are ways to prevent this...

Simple (no programming): Use two float switches and a latching relay to control an RODI supply solenoid. When the water hits the lower switch in the reservoir, the relay is triggered on. The water rises up to the highest float switch and will turn off when it reaches the designated height. I would put in a float switch as well just as a backup in case your high level switch fails...

Advanced (Requires super-geek powers): Use the same two floats or a single pressure switch hooked to an arduino or similar system. Program your high and low pressure points and control the solenoid from the programming. This way you don't have to drain it all the way if you don't want to. Put modes into the device so it knows what day of the week you do water changes so no matter what the level of the reservoir, it will make sure it is full for you when you are ready to mix your salt. I know it's a little overboard, but the geek inside me wants to build something ;) however when it comes to programming it is better at pseudo-code than actual coding...

Nice dual DI system you have there. You should modify it to have an in-line TDS meter after each stage of the DI. That way you can tell when canister 1 is shot and can maintain it easier. The color changing resin never is a good indicator as even after the color changes, it may still have some good life left that you are unable to see with your eyes.


I'm adding a valve, and will be switching off the RO/DI flow into my storage container so when I refill my ATO container (it's just a gallon)I don't get TDS creep, after a few days I can open it up and let it run a bunch through. I have a dual TDS checker, one before everything, one after the DI phase, and I'm going to add a 2nd one that is post membrane, and then in between the two DI stages.

My bigger tds creep problem is my drinking water attachment, we take small amounts of water out of that all the time.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby Bosch » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:43 pm

I put a checkvalve in for my drinking water line/storage tank. Just like you said, small amounts of water leads to high higher tds in the storage tank. I have mine setup so that my ro water can only feed the DI filters directy from the RO unit and no water comes from the storage tank. I also have a flush valve to flush out the tds creep before I let it run through the DI. It's nice to have that check valve. If I'm filling my reservoir, I still have water pressure in the storage tank. I always hated turning that faucet on to find it empty...

Not sure if I explained it well, but its not hard to set up this way.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby Railcar79 » Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:08 pm

So for those without float valves and the like, how much of my RODI should I dump before filling my barrel
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby iced98lx » Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:40 pm

Bosch wrote:I put a checkvalve in for my drinking water line/storage tank. Just like you said, small amounts of water leads to high higher tds in the storage tank. I have mine setup so that my ro water can only feed the DI filters directy from the RO unit and no water comes from the storage tank. I also have a flush valve to flush out the tds creep before I let it run through the DI. It's nice to have that check valve. If I'm filling my reservoir, I still have water pressure in the storage tank. I always hated turning that faucet on to find it empty...

Not sure if I explained it well, but its not hard to set up this way.


This is how I have it setup, but when you turn the faucet upstairs on to fill a glass of water, you get a shot burst of water through the RO system, causing TDS creep. I don't currently flush much before I make water, so I'll have to start doing that, I guess.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby iced98lx » Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:47 pm

in other news, got my new prefilters installed, new DI canisters in etc. Emptying previous made 60 gallons of water and 20 gallons of saltwater. Came out of the new DI resin at 0TDS, even with a big variance of the TDS going into the DI. going to get some fresh made and do a really, really big water change. My LPS are very unhappy ATM and I can't figure out why.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby shifty51008 » Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:53 pm

Railcar79 wrote:So for those without float valves and the like, how much of my RODI should I dump before filling my barrel


when I make rodi water I have a bypass before my DI that I open up that goes to the drain, I will let that run for about 20 min. or until my tds meter reads 4 or less then I will close it and let it make the RODI water.

usually when I first open up the bypass the TDS reads in the high 200's so if I didn't have the bypass my DI would get used up very fast.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby shifty51008 » Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:54 pm

iced98lx wrote:in other news, got my new prefilters installed, new DI canisters in etc. Emptying previous made 60 gallons of water and 20 gallons of saltwater. Came out of the new DI resin at 0TDS, even with a big variance of the TDS going into the DI. going to get some fresh made and do a really, really big water change. My LPS are very unhappy ATM and I can't figure out why.



have you ran any test's lately? if so what are the numbers?
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby iced98lx » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:58 pm

shifty51008 wrote:
iced98lx wrote:in other news, got my new prefilters installed, new DI canisters in etc. Emptying previous made 60 gallons of water and 20 gallons of saltwater. Came out of the new DI resin at 0TDS, even with a big variance of the TDS going into the DI. going to get some fresh made and do a really, really big water change. My LPS are very unhappy ATM and I can't figure out why.



have you ran any test's lately? if so what are the numbers?


Yea things were normal, but I had a big salinity swing (1.024->1.028 -> 1.026 in about an hour) and have been experiencing nightly swings in temps (bigger heater arrives friday) from 81->75. I'll probably do a full suite of tests tomorrow and post up in the saltwater forum.

Saw a big burst of GHA along with the cyno, thus I took a closer look at my supply water knowing that I haven't ever really had GHA after the cycle settled down.


On the big tank front, I've got my drilling all planned and sketched and what not. I also have started the collection of plumbing parts and am getting together a few possibilities for a sump.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby shifty51008 » Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:22 am

I am sure the temp and sg swings didn't help alot but th LPS will bounce back.

the GHA and canyo will dissapear with time, just keep your nitrates and phosphates down and the GHA won't stay, a turbo snail will also help. adding more flow will also help with the canyo.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby iced98lx » Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:35 am

shifty51008 wrote:I am sure the temp and sg swings didn't help alot but th LPS will bounce back.

the GHA and canyo will dissapear with time, just keep your nitrates and phosphates down and the GHA won't stay, a turbo snail will also help. adding more flow will also help with the canyo.


Yea, just got new heater into the tank, went with a 300W one, so that should keep things a bit more stable that way. Going to start with the water changes and hopefully the LPS will bounce back.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby black hills tj » Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:50 am

Soooo...are we drilling this this weekend?
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby iced98lx » Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:25 pm

black hills tj wrote:Soooo...are we drilling this this weekend?


Lake this weekend.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby black hills tj » Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:49 pm

iced98lx wrote:
black hills tj wrote:Soooo...are we drilling this this weekend?


Lake this weekend.


Thanks for the invite! What time should we show up? ;)
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby Bosch » Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:50 pm

TJ, I think the ice is off the lake by now.
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Re: Chris' 180 Gallon In Wall Build

Postby black hills tj » Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:27 pm

Bosch wrote:TJ, I think the ice is off the lake by now.


Its fishin time!
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